GTR and ZR1 Nurburgring times fake? Alex Roy and Matt Farah Debate - Garage419

Nurburgring track times: I tend not to believe any manufacturer's claims on their own test of a pre-production car. You simply have no method to tell if the car is tuned anything close to a factory production car. In addition, manufacturers often do things like skip the finish straight to make their numbers look better. I only give credit to independant tests, such as Sport Auto, Autobild and Top Gear. They may actually use a manucturer's test driver to test the car, but they are always based on consistant variables: always a final produciton car and always the same distance on the track. A good pair of examples is to look at the GTR and the GT3. No independant test of a production GTR has ever been able to get anywhere near the manufacturers claims. The fastest independant test was 7:38. This was the 4th to 5th GTR they tested with most in the high 7:40s. For Porsche, they claimed the new GT3 could do a 7:40. Sport Auto got a production car and got Porsche test driver Walter Rohrl to drive it. He ran, low and behold, 7:40. Exactly the claim. Bottom line is no manufacturer's claim should ever be used as a basis for Ring Track times, let's leave that up to Sport Auto, Autobild and Top Gear.

Matt I want to comment on the decision of moving drag racings Top Fuel and Funny Car classes to a 1000 ft race. I am a huge Drag Racing fan and in my own opinion is that the NHRA did this because the tracks are unwilling to make the necessary changes to their track. The accident to Scott Kelita was certainly tragic but, I believe the NHRA has acted far to quickly on their decision because of the ongoing investigation. The new track in Morth Carolina I believe will be the bench mark for new tracks to come and changes to existing changes to be made. they did exactly what the sport and speeds need. They lengthened the shutdown area and also made changes to the excape pit and barriers. I believe a quarter mile is 1320 ft not 1000. So now they have the standing 1000 ft race?? This is difinitely not right. I live in the Pacific Northwest and our racing season up here is short and I beieve this change should be reversed ASAP. Make the tracks do their necesary upgrades and get on with it. A quarter mile is a quarter mile not 1000 ft. If I was able to post with an attachment I would send you a copy of the car I am in the process of building. 1967 Dodge Dart, 500 ci Chrysler w/approx. 775 hp., all the trick stuff. That is all, I just stumbled over Garage419 on youtube and have listened to your commentary for a few hours and I must say you have certaily done your homework. Keep up the good work.

Anybody wonder if Matt or Alex talked with a top-fuel crew chief before they decided that they were experts on what happens to those engines as the make a pass???? Mike Neff (old spice funny car driver) dumbed things down to me and kindly explained what kind of damage those motors do to themselves in the last 100 yards or so. They blow up, all while the fuel pump and blower are still mixing 90+ gpm of nitromethane with a ration of 1:1.7 worth of air and dumping it in the cabin with the driver. I personally took a trip to Bandimere Speedway in Denver to see how sissy this 1000ft limit is,,,still over 300mph. 1/4 mile drag racing is the all mighty test of an automobile (drag wise) however until you understand what a nitromethane race car really is and what it really does,,,,automobile racing become somewhat arbitrary.

i could care less on 0-60 and top end speed, or how fast it goes round the ring, i would like to know how these car would feel on a day to day basis, and what the long term would be on these cars, are they comfortable, can they go on a long trip and not be rigid and painful, are they good GT cars, i know most people will care about the speed, granted that what these cars are built for, but in the end, price wise and ownership, i would rather know which would be the better to own then just find one sitting in a wrecking yard, it like someone said before, if you have money, it does not make you a better driver cause you have it.

I have to agree with the "who cares" view. Out on the street both cars are exceptional for different reasons. And most people will never experience the full potential of either car. It's interesting how quickly people dismiss a car because they don't "like" it. As if it's performance is lesser because of one's opinion. Make mine a GTR, but after years of crap cars, the Corvette is worth some respect. But what do I know I'd just assume have a Cosworth Escort out on a street than a track day car that collects dust 99% of the time. Oh Alex just finished the book, brillant!

No, don't standarize it. Who cares what the exact time is. Sufficient that the car is "very fast". The 3 sec difference between the ZR1 and the GTR means that you can choose either car... I would recommend that you take a Nurburgring driving school first before you attempt... On second thought, don't attempt.

To be honest, I don't think the Nurburgring is a good benchmark for car manufacturers. For most average people (or people who like cars but don't research them all that much) Hearing the name of the track brings a sort of confusion on. I remember that when I started hearing track times I was pretty impressed with what was going on but in all honesty I didn't really care. I was just like okay so this car can go across this ring in this time, big whoop. I know that auto makers are trying to appeal to the car enthusiasts with timing their cars on the ring now but I don't think it's smart marketing scheme. The average person won't know what the Nurburg is, and further more, not all people that buy sports cars buy them for how fast they can go around a circuit. Not all people will reap the benefits of knowing how fast a car can go on the Nurburg. Now I know that these cars are pretty much strictly for extreme care enthusiasts but still. Zero to sixty, lateral G forces, braking distances, slolam trap times; these values actually make sense to me and I'm sure many other people. The average consumer and also moderate car enthusiast with know what all of these terms are and will also know what it means for them. Saying a car can go around a 13 mile track in 7:30 seconds just says that; it can go around a freakishly long circuit in 7:30. That's all, nothing less. Auto makers should go back around to normal testing. And if they just absolutely have to test using the ring, they should just let Car and Driver, Top Gear and various other reputable car magazines/TV shows do the testing not the company, using stock components and not dressed up super setups. That's my $.02 worth. ~phil

I love Alex Roy as long as he is writing. His book was good but he is a dick.

WARNING: Douchebag dead ahead http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/12/2007/05/Team-Polizei.jpg

I agree completely with Charioteer's assessment of Alex Roy, but I'd like to add to it a little... Alex Roy comes off as a snide little douchebag with deep pockets full of old money. Not everyone is fortunate enough rub elbows with the rich and famous and travel in the same circles as the Maximillion Cooper jet setting types you write about in your book. The only thing missing from your smug ass frat-boy chemotherapy look you've got going on is the popped collar. Just do it Roy, pop that collar, complete the total douchebag look. I'd bet good money he'd change his tune about drag racing if he had the balls to take a ride in a car that trips the sixty foot lights with the rear tires.

Honestly i think the ring would be a great benchmark for all highperfomce cars and it should be one of the variables factored in when comparing two cars. It would be an add on to the 0 to 60 times, bracking distance, horsepower output, etc.

alex can stfu with his stupid bmw's and his anti-drag racing. i think alex is just mad that he is a stupid bald dumb ass. i said it...dumb ASS!!! get someone who can stick to the outline and talk cars. this dumb ass should respect top fuel drag racing and the zr1.....p.s alex's mom is probably a fucking retard to raise a dumb shit anti car guy like this douche bag..........FUCK!

Hey dammit. wheres today's (Thurs July 10th) episode already? I like to watch your show and waste time while at work....not during my precious evenings!

Stop Alex Roy comming back in the studio. I can't bear his stupid comments

GTR = AS GROTESQUE AS AFTERBIRTH WITH SOME USABLE REAL WOLD PERFORMANCE.. ZR1 = JUNK = YUPPIE MOBILE = DOUCHE IN SCOTTSDALE ROLLING UP TO A BAR Yea they are both out of my price range.. But for that price range ill build my own toy.. Because that is all those cars are good for! And the Nurburgring, like others have said. There are to many variables.

can some one explain the point of going in a straight line for fun. Especially with an automatic. With a 99% just that the FUCK is gonna get blown out of you.

If it counts for anything I was at the Ring a couple of weeks ago. Its the scariest place in the world.It is a fair test of both man and machine but to get any real speed requires TOTAL commitment. I like to think I am pretty handy but its very narrow with unpredictable cambers and inclines that go up like the side of a house. Just for the record I don't understand how the Vette could get close to a GT-R in a fair fight. The GR-R would just kill it. Sorry.

Wow, so many people flaming Roy... Why is that? I think this was one of the funniest and most entertaining G419 episodes ever... As are most of the shows when Roy is on Anyways, for those who don't get Roy, yea he's strongly opinionated, ridiculous, extremely funny, and hey, isn't this supposed to be a debate show? So why knock the guy for being unafraid to speak his mind? If you meet him in person you will see he's anything BUT an asshole or a tool.

I think the nurburgring would be a good benchmark if it consisted of wild deer running in the middle of the track randomly requiring you to abruptly slam on the brakes, because thats what happens when you drive fast on the back roads.

Alex Roy=douche bag. I'll be sure next time he is on the show to skip it :)

Cars right off the lot with the same fuel, from the same pump etc. Same Driver(s): 5 or more drivers, all drivers race each car and their times are then calculated against each other, also averaged etc. Car & Driver does this for their Lighting Lap… Actually, just copy what Car & Driver does, but on the Ring…that easy…

ok where do i start???? QOD i guess, Is the Ring a good benchmark? i think i've said this before on 419 i think its a great bemchmark, and standardizing the test is a great idea, just to make sure there r no arguments like we have now. if a third party monitored or regulated things when the tests r done it'd be nice, but like u guys said, realllyyyy dont care as much as u'd think what the times r, ZR1 being 3 secs faster or even 10secs faster doesnt make me wanna get one, dont get me wrong i'd love to e given one, but i dont c the point of a ZR1 when i can get a used Zo6 for 50 or 60 grand nd tune it myself. new 7series i dont know what u guys think but i was loving the CS concept, i had my fingers crossed they'd just take that thing and throw the 7 series badge on it, but of course its always about taking styling ques which always turns out to be wayyyy LAMER than the concept it self. Drag racing hahahaha always been the guy thats mad its a "sport" its really not that hard to go in a staight line and hit all ur shift points, and dont even get me on NASCAR sooooo dumb, i cant belive those 2 "sports"get more publicity and coverage than drifting does

as far as the new 7 series , more and more european cars are copying lexus , whether its for styling or transmissions . drag racing is real fun , for 4-15 seconds !!! you can never standardize the "ring" lap times , there are too many variables , drivers , tires , wind , temperature , humidity , etc . no car company is just taking a vehicle out of the show room gassing it up at a local regular station and running it , there all trying to gain every advantage possible . over a 13 mile race course , a few seconds are nothing !!! but the ring is a great test bed for cars because its very demanding in every aspect and if a car can run great on the "green hell" your local road ain't going to kick its ass . p.s. fast cars are only fast with fast drivers !!!

Bimmers: when it comes to the M5, how do you not recognize the E34? Sure it doesnt have the power of an E39, but it beats it in styling and the fact that it was the last of the M's which was actually handbuilt in a seprate M shop (as opposed to coming off the same line as a normal 5 series). Also, try and find someone selling a great condition E34 M5; thats right..you cant. Drag Strip: should be a 1/4 mile. Alex, you can say, what is the point of a drag race...but what the fuck is the point of a Rally? If its for the fun of the drivers/owners...I emphatically agree..but then that goes for drag racing too. If the point is 32 hrs 7 secs....then thats just fucking irresponsible and stupid. McLaren: Stupid and looks like shit. Facia looks like a JackoLantern. Actually makes the original McLaren SLR look good. Nurburgring Standardization: I like the Ring battles...so yea, I agree there should be a benchmark which is not based on the Manufacturers' times. There is only one answer...and hes called The Stig QOD: RIng is a fucking great benchmark. But I agree that, if it is to become the new manufacturer battleground...then we need official times to be tested/posted by a 3rd party...not the OEM. Did I mention The Stig? And, I hate to be a hater...and to offend your friend, Matt...but Roy comes off as kind of...whats the word? Oh yea: Douchebag. NoAgeLimitPiaggio.us? I accept that this is a good testing ground for your technology/format which you may want to deploy at future Rallys...I do respect that. But who the fuck cares about NoAgeLimitPiaggio.us? I guess you have to test a new format/idea out on a property which is well under the rader. Fine...but how about you get that 32 hrs 7 mins documentary out first? Sorry to hate; I respect you and what you spend your life doing....but you came across like a snide douchebag today.

Here's how we can standardize the Nurburgring: First, we need to test cars that are driven off the showroom floor. These autos must remain unmodified when driven around the track. Secondly, one third-party professional driver must test all cars in similar weather conditions. Speaking of Top Gear, I nominate the Stig. I think the results from testing cars around a track rather than down a track (0-60/62), around in circles (G forces), or down a very long track (top speed) would show the car's overall capabilities. Drag times, g forces, and top speed numbers aren't accurate measures of how vehicles feel when their owners drive them on a daily (or not so daily) basis. I am FOR the Nurburgring lap time to be the benchmark for all production vehicles.

The Nurburgring is not a good benchmark. Times should be held by the track, not manufactures. Also to run the whole ring is dangerous for powerful cars, so how much farther will they push before someone gets hurt, this has been commented on by Gring drivers. Lastly a side note, don't invite Alex Roy back. What a loser. "I would buy this car even if its junk over the other car because I'm an extreemly bias asshole."

Just because you are not personally a fan of drag racing doesn't give you the right to start joking about the man's death. The next time you drive a 7,000hp car and manage to hold it steady at anything other than a dead stop you be sure to call me. QOD: While green hell does wonders for helping manufacturers tune suspension settings the lap times mean nothing unless both cars are driven by the same driver on the same day. Test like 0-60, 1/4 mile, slalom... can be done anywhere by anyone and although they should absolutely never be considered infallible they give you a general idea of what said car is capable of.

There are simply too many factors to take into consideration. It'd be best if the cars were tested by an independent source, and not by the automakers themselves. Even if this idea were implemented, however, there is still one variable that cannot be controlled- weather. If you compare two cars, one under dry conditions and one in the wet stuff, you may as well be comparing apples and oranges.

So the "Ring" might not be the best benchmark...but still..how bad ass is it that the entire industry is in an economic crisis becuase of gasoline and on the flipside we have manufacturers fighting with their halo cars for 3 second bragging rights over eachother... And in conclusion, Alex Roy is a ginormous tool

I agree that the GT-R is the better car. Vettes are just junk to me. Ring times are a fad from the past few years. The 'Ring is an interesting side note, but as a benchmark? I'd rather hear about various writers' impressions of a car than what it does 0-60 or on the 'Ring. A car that is fast on the ring may suck for my driving style or reason for buying it. 99% of us will never drive the car in conditions even close to what you can do on the 'Ring and 99.99% of us will probably never experience the 'Ring outside of a video game. Benchmarking should never override basic journalism. Benchmarks are for the lazy.

I completely agree i would have the GT-R any day of the week. For me there is just no comparison and it really does not matter that although it is a supercar that it is really a Nissan. I don't think that the nurburring is a good benchmark because, ofr starters who drives these cars to set the actual times? Because unless it's the same driver i don't know how it can be fair, because say if they were testing a new Ferrari and a Ferrari test driver did the offical test around the nurburgring or even Schumacher, which is entirly possible. Schumachers going to be a damn sight quicker most people that go round the track. Apart from that i think you could maybe solve the tyre and racing fuel problem by, when they arrive at the track, put the cars in some kind of F1 style park fermay(sorry don't know the correct spelling.) where the cars cannot be touched until they go to do their lap. Also maybe the cars should be checked to make sure that they are completely road standard.

Nice, Pinkler...

GREAT SHOW guys!!! The pilots of the dragsters are aware of the danger this sport includes so shorten the track is just ridiculous because the pilots know tht they can also die on the first 2 meters... QOD: The Nürburgring is a good benchmark but not when the brands drive themselves around it. Car magazines are a good way to prevent cheating like TopGear does. In Germany we have magazines who make their own ranglist with times they drove!!! Then it is a benchmark!!!

It's not the Top Gear test track, it's 13 miles! You're absolutely right, 3 seconds over 13 miles is ridiculous if you think about it. It seems like the car companies caught word of internet fanboys (who just love to spread hype, rumours, talk shit etc) keeping a sharp eye on their performance car 'Ring times, and now it's the new hotness. It's up there with trendy, celeb gossip. "oh did you hear the ZR1 totally WTFpwned the GTR by 3 seconds!" The only experience I have on the Nurburgring is, like many, on GT4. Just from playing a simulation you can tell that there are countless things that can happen to influence the time. Now with the latest news, that the cars are tweaked with c16 and shaved rubber? *eyeroll. Let's all just go out for a cruise to Taco Bell.